terbo
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Post by terbo on Apr 20, 2004 21:18:27 GMT -5
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Post by Tmachine on Apr 21, 2004 17:35:13 GMT -5
I hate to feel the need to defend my win in sf, but when another contestant tags a review of the battle saying i just used beat matched loops to win i get pissed. listen, i was triggering my shit on my keyboard...everything i was playing was built of 1 second sound loops triggered at different times by me while i was on stage. I PLAYED LIVE...I ACTUALLY SHOWED UP TO BATTLE NOT JUST REPLAY TRACKS I RECORDED AT HOME. which sadly is what alot of these people were doing. I mean when i go to see a d.j. battle i don't want to see them just playing their studio shit. I want to see them mixing and fucking with their shit...I don't give a fuck how noisy your shit or how hardcore it makes because you know how to use distortion and program at 180 bpms or sample the monday night football theme song or slayer riffs. if you want to battle battle don't just replay your trax!!!!! IMPROVISE!!!!!
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terbo
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Post by terbo on Apr 21, 2004 19:25:39 GMT -5
i hope you're not talking to me. i just got a phone call saying you were going off on me here.
i wrote my own software for the event and triggered every single sound i played in realtime, i'm confused if you're trying to describe my work with your post. you used off the shelf gear. you didn't even have a visual show, i was playing multimedia clips for the sake of the projection. it's like i was juggling fire clubs on a ten foot unicylce and you were riding a tricycle. and the samples were FOX NFL sunday and Yngwie Malmsteen.
if there's any critique that should be sent over your head, mr. twittering machine, it's that you played repeating melodic synth pad riffs over a strict tempo with no percussion in a BATTLE like it was six am in a house music club. hello, battle? i can't believe you made it out of the first round with that stuff, i was shocked. little fluffy clouds? hello? a battle should sound like a terrorist bombing, get a clue.
obviously, there were severe stylistic issues with the judges; the event should have been more accurately labelled a realtime dance remix contest, and us experienced battle types would have made sure to stay well clear of the event. there's no way i would participate in a battle where criteria would include a 32 bar techno beat buildup as a vinyl DJ would do. i've already won two battle trophies with my laptop, in much bigger venues, in front of larger audiences, on better systems, against national opponents, in better organized events. how many trophies have you won sir?
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Post by Tmachine on Apr 21, 2004 20:08:40 GMT -5
ted... i think the point of a laptop battle is to show off your skills playing a laptop. whether you prefer trax that sound like fluffy clouds or you prefer trax that sound like a "terrorist" attack. i used my laptop to do what i do, if you got a problem with that than i'm sorry. yeah your right i don't write software, i use it, i use it to do what i want it to do. now i'm glad you had some visuals, but the projector was there to show the audience what the artist was doing. not to distract them with machine guns and explosions or whatever else comes with terrorist attacks. now i'm no expert on terrorism, in fact i think it is pretty fucked up so i don't do trax based around it, but you go on and do what you need to do. i'm sorry ted, you are much more hardcore than i. are you happy now. no go on and have a beautiful day filled with the fluffiest of clouds. and if this contest was bullshit why do you care?
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stiks
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Post by stiks on Apr 21, 2004 21:53:08 GMT -5
Damn! Come on kids, this doesn't need to get personal. We all respect both of you for practicing your art for the public! Obviously you both do things differently on stage, but that's the great thing about events that bring together different crews and varied schools of thought on a subject.
Some of the music had great barrages of sound meant to decimate eardrums. Some of the music had navigatable melodies, and funky drums breaks.
I heard both of your sets, and though they were of a totally different approach, they both represented a very polished example of each sub-genre.
There is a lot of innovation happening in SF, we don't need to be fighting over it.
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terbo
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Post by terbo on Apr 22, 2004 12:33:58 GMT -5
yeah, honestly i don't have any personal issues with t.machine, although i did have some folks contact me about his post here, which some interpreted as personal attacks on me. out of all the people there playing that style, t.machine was definitely the most solid, consistent and fun to watch. and i got to stand next to his brother in the audience and cheer for him in the early rounds. keep on rockin dude. peace.
the big problem i have is that there is already a battle culture going on here in SF, and then these out of town people who don't know what they're doing show up with their trademarked tour and nice press clippings. basically, if you step on people's turf, odds are, they're going to get upset. so i'm still pissed off about the bullshit they passed off as a 'battle' when it was clearly a 'realtime dance music contest'. their event was clearly mislabelled, they drifted into someone else's space, and they'll continue to get grief for this for some time. wait til they get to new york, OMG.
it's so funny to hear all these people complain about rowdy audience members; the allure of going to a battle is all the cheering and yelling, that's what it's all about, especially with audience voting consulted by the judges. on some levels, the degree of spectator participation is higher than seeing a DJ or band. it's like going to see a boxing match, you yell and scream and hoot and holler. a battle is not someplace where you sit on a bean bag and sip chai.
funnier is to hear people complaining about their ears hurting. i mean, if you go to a battle, wear a helmet. duh. and bring earplugs. someone might put a 0db 10khz sinewave on for ten seconds.
i expect battle contestants to throw the kitchen sink at me; the entire 20th century of recorded music condensed into however many minutes in the battle format. this would include crafty insults; a good opponent may have samples mocking you work (i had some of this ready to go but didn't face any of the people i was prepared to break this out on). the goal would be to make three minutes sound like the rest of your life. in a laptop category, you'd want to make sure you demonstrated it's capacity to work beyond the 100 year old technology of the turntable, and do stuff that doesn't sound possible with vinyl. in some battles, audience members will angrily yell 'that sounds like music' at contestants, who will get disqualified on the spot. one angle is to avoid measurable pitch or tempo intervals that could be transcribed to western sheet music.
further, battle is a battle. the last battle i was in, my first round opponent hit me hard in the back of the head while i was performing with a full scale plastic guitar, full on battle ax. i threw him off the stage and kicked him hard, we were both disqualified. the first battle i won in 2002 at the dna lounge against allen chang from madame chao productions (brookyln), we both were in full costume, and i stripped fully naked in my last minute. i was planning to do this at club six in the final but didn't get that far. also, one would consider bringing a cheap secondhand laptop and smashing it at the end of a set; or, threatening to hit your opponent in the head with it, caveman style. warrior style.
going forward, i will make continued efforts to fight off any IDM kids who try to stick jungle and downtempo electro beat music onto the word 'battle,' for it is clearly wrong. people who complain about battle opponents who are too noisy and too hard, and audiences who are out of control, sound antithetical to the term, and we must continue to educate people when necessary as to the proper definition.
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Post by russarteaga on Apr 22, 2004 13:56:22 GMT -5
Hi Ted, as much as I respect your opinion on what the term "battle" means I have to sound off. I don't think your definition is correct at all. A battle is everything and the kitchen sink, but mostly BEAT synced. I mean anyone can throw down samples from the last century or sequence some shit they grabbed off the TV (which to be honest I would have liked more off) but when I go to a DJ battle (I have been scratching and beat rocking since 86) I don't just want to hear bits of sound and words. I want to see some cutting and some dope trickery and just ill beat skills of any sort. To me this is what a battle is about. And yes some crafty insults are fun if that is the kind of skills you want to show. There is of course the crowd participation and I love that too. But if someone is whack (CIA) then they should be informed. Not to be mean but c’mon I mean how else does one improve their ninja skills? If all your friends tell you how much you rock then how does that make you a better battler. Also the whole show-off thing is why in my humble opinion the DMC and the rest of the turntable battles SUCK FUKIN ASS. I am not and have never been into the stupid shit that people do to garner attention at these events. Show your skills NOT your tits. I mean sure it is more entertaining but that is not what we are there for. The entertainment should come from skills and yes let's enlighten the ignorant to realize this. It is not what you wear or what your hair looks like it is how you play your fucking instrument. Ted, I thought your performance was dope. Great ideas although you seemed to do almost the exact same thing in your other set. The bit with the freqs was too much for "me". I didn’t want to lose my hearing but I did appreciate what you were doing...and it was funny. I personally don't think there should be a separation of IDM and non beat based battles, if you want to bring noise, bring it. But don't expect anyone to consider it skills or even like it. And I strongly disagree with you about the fact that at a battle we should have to wear a helmet, this isn’t Survival Research Labs. The fact that “someone might put a 0db 10khz sinewave on for ten seconds” is a possibility I have to ask “why?” If I wanted to go to a thunderdome type event I would have brought my 83 olds and a chain saw. I agree that we shouldn’t make this a personal attack but it is obvious that we all have a different view of what a laptop battle should be. I think we can have different events and participate in them all but if you do a battle that specifies “no beat matching or music” then I will most definitely bring a helmet and ear plugs. I might even bring an oscilloscope! Peace
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Post by russarteaga on Apr 22, 2004 14:11:14 GMT -5
Oh and Tmachine who is questioning your perfomance?? I was the one questioning the winner but thats because I thought YOU were doing some of the coolest things. I was right there in front on the bassbin from the momment the first guy came one (CIA) to the very end but was so pissed because of shortbus the obnixous frat dude and because I thought the judges gave the winnings to DuranDuranDuran (who should be signed to tigerbeat6 by the way). And please stop worring about your win. You did good. Now stop feeling like you have to defend yourself. I personally thought Ted was cool. His whole set was quite hysterical and witty. But you won. He is saying how many trophies he has so go to seattle and have fun man. Just make sure to come back with the prize.
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terbo
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Post by terbo on Apr 22, 2004 15:23:19 GMT -5
if beat matching is one of the criteria judged in an event, it should be mentioned in the rules in advance, for that makes it a dance music contest, which is a very narrow and specific definition that eliminates an enormous range of expression. and then we would know not to show up. i did not sign up for a dance music contest, i signed up for a battle.
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Post by unknown8bit on Apr 22, 2004 16:21:22 GMT -5
all i have to say is boo fucking hoo if you didn't win. 16 contestants, 15 losers. obviously some people are having a more difficult time accepting it than others.
if you want to redefine the rules and be territorial about "the battle scene" then throw your own battles so you can win them all.
i'm out.
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terbo
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Post by terbo on Apr 22, 2004 17:01:30 GMT -5
the five official rules listed on the laptopbattle.org site never mention dance music or specific stylistic genres anywhere, its about the hardware specs. the original venue was a rock and roll bar, not a house club. laptopbattle.org is the one doing the redefining, there have been previous laptop battles in this region before they came to town.
if i'm a reigning Chaorin Kombat Laptop champion in this area and then i come to throw down and then the judges are against me because i don't play in their new ill-defined style, which is antithetical to mine but named the same, of course i'd be pissed. there was absolutely no way my kombat champion style would have won the night in front of those judges, that was obvious.
i would never teach anyone to play solid 4/4 time in a battle, and never do so myself, and never enter a contest where this is expected. to be more direct, people like yourself are making me look like a jackass, and i resent it. i did not appreciate being involved in a sloppy, ill-executed battle with uneducated and inexperienced snotty judges tossing me aside because 'i don't get it,' because i certainly do.
i will continue to teach others, such as yourself, the ways of audio combat.
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stiks
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Post by stiks on Apr 22, 2004 17:32:51 GMT -5
It seems pretty obvious that two schools of thought are emerging in SF (and nationally) about the style and content of these laptop battles. I think that's great, it can only lead to more innovation within the scene.
Maybe what we are really talking about is correctly labeling these things in the future.
Obviously the school of "Chaorin Kombat" has been around a bit longer, and has it's roots in the more experimental aspect of studio production. The sounds used seem more dynamic, and pushed towards the bleeding edge of signal processing.
The battle presented by laptopbattle.org is a new comer and obviously comes from a background of music producers (not necessarily DANCE music, but still music that sticks to coherent song structure.) You also have to think that this event was shaped considerably by the judges, who were from the SF music and media biz (which for decades has been dazzled by electronic dance music.)
I think both ideas on battling are valid- the Chaorin Kombat version serves to push the boundaries of production, and changes people's perspective in regards to the types of sounds that can be created and listened to. The laptopbattle.org version serves to find where electronic music production and laptop performance fit into the rest of the musical spectrum.
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Terso
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Post by Terso on Apr 22, 2004 17:46:06 GMT -5
Definitely. There also is a view of technology and how it's ultimately manipulated to create sounds. You can do what you like there is no rules on what you're bringing to the table!
Cheers,
Terso
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terbo
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Post by terbo on Apr 22, 2004 19:03:52 GMT -5
alright, now we're getting somewhere, nice posts. this is all about clarity of definitions. within battle events there can be various categories, whether hardware or stylistically defined. you can have a laptop battle category WITH external hardware, and one without. battles with beats (who can make people dance in three minutes!) and battles with intent to draw blood (bring earplugs). battles with laptop VJs on projectors. battles with custom interfaces. battles with off the shelf tools.
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Post by russarteaga on Apr 22, 2004 19:58:04 GMT -5
Terbo, you don't sound like an asshole you sound like a dance music hating DSP-l33test. Why do you feel that beat matching and triggering shit live is not at skillfull as your sonic trickery? I still like what you did but because you have won some laptop battles in the past doesn't make you the king. If the idea behind battles is to do how DJ battles do then you HAVE to be able to beat match. Who came up with you concept of SF battles where beats and music is considered a sucky thing? I really want to know. I agree it should NOT be about who can get the crowd dancing in the fastest time. I also think anyone can throw together some whack loops and call themselves a "Laptop Musician" There is however skill in realtime assembly/performance of a track that kicks ass and NOT many people can do this. I think it should be about who can ROCK a laptop. Though you may hate IDM and jungle don't you realize that is why the laptop scene has taken off as it has? Reaktor, Live, Reason, all these programs exist because of the dance in i-D-m. What got you into producing sound with a laptop? You HAD to be inspired by electronic music at some point and that my friend is my point.
Once again, you do what you do real well. And I myself would love to see a battle with controllers and home made interfaces and shit. This is very much what I consider the SF DIY (SRL, Burning Man, Web Design, RobotWars, Interactive art, Cycling74,) mentality. But a lot of people (including myself) like dance music and can see both sides. I say don't be a... (I really HATE saying this word) "hater" and BE equally interested in competing in all and every chance someone gives us to do what we do. Diversity... that is why we live in the bay area right? Let's not make this a bad thing to be different. I say we all get together and discuss this (robotspeak next week?) and maybe even put together our own version of a battle that excludes no one. Anyone? Anyone?
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